This is the Easter story. This is really the Easter story. In fact it says there, that if there had not been some way to get us back to the presence of the Father, and it had been left to the Father, and he had been helpless to get us back, we would have ended back in outer darkness with Satan and his hosts.
We would have gone the same route they went. And everything that had been organized by the Father in connection with us: our Earth, the other Earths on which part of this family is located and all the creations connected with it would have disintegrated and gone back to outer darkness, disorganized. Now this takes all the magic out of the creation.
All of a sudden we can understand it in our finite way. Suddenly our Heavenly Father becomes so much more rational, comprehensible and our appreciation begins to accelerate as we begin to realize what a remarkable, beautiful, powerful personality He is. It is absolutely beyond the capacity of our Heavenly Father to lift His children who have stumbled, while learning the difference between good and evil, back into His presence because He has to operate according to the law.
Remember all the Laws you told us back then? You remember? You know—laws you said, you kept talking about laws. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. The law says that no person can suffer for the sins of another person.
Now you just stop and think why that is so. If I commit an offense, a very serious offense, can you die for it and satisfy this audience, do you think you could?
There is an offense here. Now the genius of the solution: The Gods know that these little intelligences have a capacity for compassion. They are just like you and me—intelligences have a capacity for compassion.
Therefore, the atonement is based not on law, but on mercy. The families of the Gods—they must have worked this out eons ago with other families so that this is a pattern.
Remember when they were selecting a Savior? Jesus volunteered! You can satisfy the intelligences of the Universe. Revolution, disintegration; everything that is out there is moving as it is willing to move. We had a big uncommitted, in-the-middle majority. If you start using compulsion, who says where it can end.
Lucifer is trying to steal the throne of our Heavenly Father and he wants the glory for it. There is nothing in that direction but rebellion and destruction. We finally got two-thirds on our side. Alright now, how does this atonement work?
Watch how the principle functions. Have you ever noticed that in yourself? First the principle: They must have a person who is infinite, as it says in Alma 34; it must be one who is infinitely loved.
Infinite means completely—everybody recognizes him. So we use Him—He is infinitely loved—and we have Him come down into the second estate and live a perfect life without offense so that he can return to the Father, and incidental thereto, while laboring among the human family, we have Him suffer so terribly that the little intelligences of the entire universe are revolted!
They loved Him! And it says in the Book of Mormon, even the elements of the earth northward was different than it was before. The very elements were crying out against this terrible torture of someone that they loved. And all this was by design. Listen to this statement:. Whose mercy? The Father already has mercy towards us, This is His plan. We have to create it in those that are demanding justice.
That is where you must arouse the bowels of mercy, which overpowers justice, meaning the demands of justice, and brings about the means of an end that they may have faith unto repentance, and thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice and encircles them in the arms of safety. While he that exercises not faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice.
Therefore, only him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. You see how he did that? It would rob justice. And the Father can do it without ceasing to be God. Because of what? Let me give you an example of how that works:. During the Civil War, there was a nineteen-year-old soldier who went to sleep on guard duty.
A whole section of the Union Army was wiped out in that particular sector. He lost many of his very best friends, all because he went to sleep and they were able to make a surprise attack on one flank of that particular defense effort.
He survived the battle, was court marshaled and sentenced to be hanged for neglect of duty in going to sleep while serving as a guard, which is routine military law. The death sentence and order of execution was placed on the desk of President Lincoln and he was prepared to sign it. First I lost my husband, then I lost my sons—five of them.
See how compassion works? It completely overcomes the demands of justice and nobody criticized President Lincoln for using his pardoning power in that case once they found out what the plea of that little mother had been. I might just pause at this moment to ask you the question, what do you think an intelligence is? What is an intelligence?
Well, we know not. He might make it eventually. Toward the evening they went to the Last Supper. I wonder if he suspected that maybe Jesus suspected. Now it says that Jesus became very depressed. I pray not for the world but for those that thou hast given me out of the world, that they may be one. And in the greatest suffering and anguish He pleaded with that prayer. I need to pray. And so they went from the part of the city where the poor people lived.
And they went across temple square out through the Golden Gate on the eastern side, down through the Brook Kidron and up on the top of the Mount of Olives. Its dark now, and as He came in he told eight of His disciples to stay by the gate. Then He went further up the hillside into the grove. And apparently only John stayed awake. I agree with you and others that we need to have balance in analyzing Skousen's writings and also William's views.
I want to share 3 things that maybe will deepen our knowledge about some issues presented here. He speaks about how some teachings by Joseph clarify points about the evil, creation, agency etc.
I don't pretend to explain here how this talk helps our understanding of Skousen's writings but who read it will understand why I'm sharing. The poem is enormous, so if someone wants to read it, I advise to only read the book II. The tale the poem gives some interesting insights about things speculated here and make you wonder if the poet was inspired by God in some way.
I will recommend one of each of them but they have more. It would appear I'm late to this party, hehe. I also encountered Skousen on my mission, and thought it was fascinating at the time.
I had similar questions going into my mission that are listed above, but they didn't get answered at that time. One of the problems is that we have heavily utilized the theory of penal substitution in our understanding of the atonement. This is a Calvinist theory, and is in the ballpark of the right answer, but is not correct. Skousen's theory builds on penal substitution, but it is never described that way in scripture. In fact, Amulek just about says it's wrong in Alma So what is the answer?
Fortunately, God did not leave us in the dark on such an important topic, which is meant to be the foundation of our faith. The communications of Christ through Joseph Smith turn out to have more of the puzzle pieces we need, and the answer is in Christ's humanity- his love for us.
Monday, May 24, Skousen and the Atonement. It was a typescript of an address that had been delivered to missionaries in the Dallas, Texas Mission on December 18, Brother Skousen presented a number of issues that I had not previously considered that caused me to ponder the gospel from a new perspective.
I wasn't prepared to accept everything put forth because there were a number of items that frankly, seemed strange; particularly, Skousen's concept of "intelligences.
I am not providing the content of the talk here because I believe it is protected under copyright laws, however, it is available for purchase online, or an abbreviated summary is also available in Skousen's work The First 2, Years. First 2, Years - Skousen.
In , Clyde J. Widtsoe] as the source of his understanding, the idea that God's power is solely based on honor, the idea that God alone could not save us, distortion of the principles justice and mercy, an uncommitted middle-ground majority of pre-mortal spirits, an incomplete explanation of Satan's plan, Christ's suffering to appease the intelligences, and lastly, an assumption made by Skousen regarding Christ's forgetfulness of pre-mortality.
Williams concludes by stating that Skousen's explanation is in contrast to the Prophet Joseph Smith's teachings, wherein, it is essential to understand the correct character, perfection, and attributes of God in order to obtain salvation.
After reading Williams' rebuttal, it is hard to imagine that there is anything worthwhile in Brother Skousen's discourse. While I generally agree with Brother Williams' assessment, I think he does a great injustice to the reader by not identifying some of the profound questions brought to the table by Cleon Skousen. While a number of Skousen's conclusions are unwarranted and scripturally unsupported, he still provides us with a number of significant issues for consideration.
Some of these questions have been raised by previous prophets, which is certainly worthy of consideration. Questions and issues raised by Cleon Skousen include the following:.
Not all of these questions are of the same significance; nor is this list comprehensive in identifying all the questions and issues raised by Skousen. I think some of the questions are a little absurd, while others are quite profound.
It is not within the scope of this post to address these questions. Brother Skousen did provide us with a slew of scriptures related to these subjects, including the following:. I believe some significant scriptures aren't included above, although I can understand that he was limited by time and had to choose those scriptures that would best serve his needs.
In addition to using the scriptures, Cleon Skousen also quotes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; however, Joseph Smith was quoted inaccurately, 4 in relation to having taught the Quorum of the Twelve and their wives the subject of eternal progression and intelligence. He also cites Brigham Young, 5 and states that Heber C. Kimball, Parley P. Pratt, and Brigham Young's teachings must be sought to further understand Joseph's teachings since they aren't provided in the History of the Church; however, they are not quoted or cited for further research.
It would have been nice to have those references. There are a number of inaccurate statements made by Skousen that aren't addressed by Williams, perhaps because they are deemed less significant than the issues he chose to identify.
As already noted, Skousen inaccurately quotes Joseph Smith to suit his purpose, but he also attributes a number of statements made by Brigham Young to Spencer W. Kimball see President Kimball's talk here. An example of an assertion made by Brother Skousen that is purely speculative is that Peter would never forgive himself for denying Christ three times.
There are many assertions presented as doctrine; however, an attentive reader can identify those statements that are unsupported by scripture. As noted above, I generally agree with Williams' assessment of Skousen's discourse, but there are a great deal of insights that can be gained from reading his talk. Since much of the questions above are not fully answered in scripture, and some are essentially "incomprehensible," according to President John Taylor, 6 a key to absorbing his discourse is to keep in mind Elder Boyd K.
Packer's teaching regarding unsound conclusions. Seeking and questioning, periods of doubt, in an effort to find answers, are part of the process of discovery. The kind of doubt which is spiritually dangerous does not relate to questions so much as to answers.
It is important that as we learn line upon line, and precept upon precept, that we refrain from jumping to conclusions without receiving personal revelation, or obtaining answers from those who are authorized to provide them. There are many who are opposed to Skousen because he has been responsible for misrepresentation and teaching opinion as doctrine.
I hate to compare him to Signature Books because I consider them in completely different camps, but my opinion is the same for both, in that I appreciate the research, but generally disagree with much of the conclusions reached therein. If it weren't for Skousen's talk, I may have never considered the question of why the Lord needed to suffer. Perhaps some consider this question inconsequential, but John Taylor certainly did not, and neither should we.
From the commencement of the offering of sacrifices the inferior creature had to suffer for the superior. Although it had taken no part in the act of disobedience, yet was its blood shed and its life sacrificed, thus prefiguring the atonement of the Son of God, which should eventually take place But what is the reason for all this suffering and bloodshed, and sacrifice?
We didn't get to be those top people, we were graded down. You remember? You know—laws you said, you kept talking about laws. That's the doctrine. Then how do we do it? How do we do it? Alma :. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. That's the law. The law says that no person can suffer for the sins of another person.
That's the law! That's what all of those little intelligences are saying. Now you just stop and think why that is so. If I commit an offense, a very serious offense, can you die for it and satisfy this audience, do you think you could?
Even though we love each other and you say to everybody, "No, don't let Brother Skousen be killed, I'll die for Brother Skousen.
It'll violate your sense of justice and it does to all of those little intelligences and Alma says that no person can die or be punished for the sins of other people and have it be accepted as justice! There is an offense here. Now the genius of the solution: The Gods know that these little intelligences have a capacity for compassion. They are just like you and me—intelligences have a capacity for compassion. Therefore, the atonement is based not on law, but on mercy. That's Alma In other words, we're going to try and get to these little intelligences in some way so that we can over come the demands of justice, with what?
So that we'll actually overcome the demands of justice. The families of the Gods—they must have worked this out eons ago with other families so that this is a pattern. Remember when they were selecting a Savior? Jesus volunteered! Satan said, "You know, Father, this is very old-fashioned. This just isn't necessary. You can satisfy the intelligences of the Universe. Just put your children in strait jackets and get them through the second estate, and it's a great ideal.
I thought I'd really like credit for it because I'm offering the whole family no-risk insurance. All I'm asking you to do is to give up the hang-up that the family has on this 'free-agency' thing.
It s only for this little bit of time, we'll put them in a strait jacket, get them through the second estate; nobody can object to them then! We've taken them down, they've got bodies, we've prevented them from violating any laws and bring them back.
It's that simple! Revolution, disintegration; everything that is out there is moving as it is willing to move. You don't get revolution that way. Satan says, "I'll start a revolution," and he got it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the real followers of the Father there for a while were a minority.
We had a big uncommitted, in-the-middle majority. Jesus said, "Father, I'll do it your way. I'll do it the way we've always had to do it. We have to have casualties, true, but at least we maintain a voluntary participation that we've always had in the past.
Anal I know somebody has to suffer in order to have that atonement and create that sense of compassion, so I'll do it. So we had a big argument, and the revelation says that the war in heaven was a testimony meeting, as we said to one another, "The Father's way is the right way.
You don't want to introduce compulsion. If you start using compulsion, who says where it can end. Lucifer is trying to steal the throne of our Heavenly Father and he wants the glory for it. There is nothing in that direction but rebellion and destruction.
We finally got two-thirds on our side. I won't be surprised if, when you see this in the vision, that we only had a minority to begin with, but we finally got two-thirds and this other one-third went for no-risk insurance. They wouldn't take a chance with us. Alright now, how does this atonement work? Watch how the principle functions. Now you're an intelligence, and you are capable of being subjected to so much sympathy and compassion, you stop asking for every pound of flesh that the law permits.
Have you ever noticed that in yourself? First the principle: They must have a person who is infinite, as it says in Alma 34; it must be one who is infinitely loved.
Infinite means completely—everybody recognizes him. So we take a spirit who is so superior he's the first counselor of the first presidency of Heaven. He's the one through whom the word passes. He's loved and respected by all just like the Father. So we use Him—He is infinitely loved—and we have Him come down into the second estate and live a perfect life without offense so that he can return to the Father, and incidental thereto, while laboring among the human family, we have Him suffer so terribly that the little intelligences of the entire universe are revolted!
It's horrible, the suffering that he went through! They loved Him! And it says in the Book of Mormon, even the elements of the earth northward was different than it was before.
The very elements were crying out against this terrible torture of someone that they loved. And all this was by design. That was the mission of Jesus Christ, You must suffer so much that these little intelligences, when you come and plead on behalf of someone that did the best that he could, which is called repentance, they'll say, "Well, they really shouldn't go back, but if you want them, after all you went through for them, yes, they can come up.
Listen to Alma , as we hear the Prophets, who used to understand and preach this doctrine extensively, which we've kind of stopped preaching among ourselves. Listen to this statement:.
Whose mercy? The Father already has mercy towards us, This is His plan. We don't have to create that in Him. We have to create it in those that are demanding justice.
That is where you must arouse the bowels of mercy, which overpowers justice, meaning the demands of justice, and brings about the means of an end that they may have faith unto repentance, and thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice and encircles them in the arms of safety.
While he that exercises not faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice. Therefore, only him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. You see how he did that? He can't! He isn't allowed to! It would rob justice. And the Father can do it without ceasing to be God. Because of what? Let me give you an example of how that works:.
During the Civil War, there was a nineteen-year-old soldier who went to sleep on guard duty. A whole section of the Union Army was wiped out in that particular sector. He lost many of his very best friends, all because he went to sleep and they were able to make a surprise attack on one flank of that particular defense effort. He survived the battle, was court marshaled and sentenced to be hanged for neglect of duty in going to sleep while serving as a guard, which is routine military law.
The death sentence and order of execution was placed on the desk of President Lincoln and he was prepared to sign it. We'd lost a lot of valuable men because a nineteen-year-old soldier went to sleep.
I don't remember whether it was by letter or personal visit, but it's not too significant. First I lost my husband, then I lost my sons—five of them. I just have one son left, and he's about to be executed for neglect of duty. He feels terrible about what he did and he knows he deserves to die—he's expecting to die, President Lincoln.
But I'm wondering, if maybe, because you have pardoning power in the Constitution, if you could find it in your heart to let me have the last of my family, for my sake.
President Lincoln said to the mother, "For your sake, I pardon your son. I pray to God he'll survive the war and be a blessing to you all the days of your life. See how compassion works? It completely overcomes the demands of justice and nobody criticized President Lincoln for using his pardoning power in that case once they found out what the plea of that little mother had been.
Now that's the way all of us are. I might just pause at this moment to ask you the question, what do you think an intelligence is? What is an intelligence? Well, we know not. What you are really looking at is something that I'm expecting to, well, lay aside one of these days.
You work with him if you have to forgive him seventy times seven, as long as he's trying, keep in there, push him. He might make it eventually. Maybe you've got an Alma the younger in the making, who knows. Toward the evening they went to the Last Supper. They partook of the Passover lamb and he looked out at the twelve apostles and said, "One of you will betray me. He picked up a piece of bread, dipped it in the gravy, handed it to Judas Iscariot and said, "Judas, whatsoever thou doest, do thou quickly.
I wonder if he suspected that maybe Jesus suspected. It has an element of finite intelligence in it, they say. Some of these little elements are just as ornery as you and me. As a matter of fact, Robert Milligan said that if all the elements were obeying all of the rules of chemistry, you would never die.
Through rebellion in the flesh. You want a mountain to move? Talk to it. When God commands, these intelligences obey, in the elements. I call unto them and they stand up together. Now listen to Brigham Young discussing this principle. There is life or intelligence in all matter through the vast extent of all the eternities.
It is in the rock, in the sand, in water, air, the gases, and in short, in every description and organization of matter whether it be solid, liquid, or gaseous. Particle operating with particle. He goes up into the outer darkness of unorganized intelligences and unorganized bits of element and combines them together so that a little tiny bit of element has an intelligence attached to it and now you can command it. The Lord has given to all of them a pattern, which becomes the law by which they operate.
Some will accept electricity and some will resist it. Some will combine with various things and you get a combination—2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen—and we call it water. And within 9 months because of the DNA organization that is set up there by highly intelligent Heavenly Father, that will grow into trillions of cells, called a human being.
All by design. You can almost stand in a worshipful feeling toward our Heavenly Father as you realize what is possible in that organizational structure. Discourses of Brigham Young, p. Now let me show you a miracle. See that hand? That is made of dirt! And our Heavenly Father can speak to all those little intelligences and He could turn them back into dirt that fast.
Dripping, incurable, on the way back to dirt. Take your hand out, Moses. Beautiful, clean, strong, pink flesh.
Children are a miracle. God speaks and they obey. Here he talks about the source of his power—what makes him God. What do you think it turns out to be? What makes a being suddenly or over the process of time a God? My honor is my power. They reorganize. We called it a miracle. It was nothing in the world but obedient intelligences.
What do you think would happen? No church on the face of the earth has dared to announce the doctrine contained in the Book of Alma, Chapter No church has dared to suggest that God could fall. In Alma ,22,25 he repeats it over and over again. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.
Who dares to suggest that anything could happen to challenge the power of the almighty Elohim, chief of the Gods? I work within very strict rules. I have to function so that I enjoy their confidence and do not violate it. These are doctrines of the church that we seldom put in these dimensions. But this is the Easter story. This is really the Easter story. In fact, it says there that if there had not been some way to get us back to the presence of the Father, and it had been left to the Father and He had been helpless to get us back, we would have ended back in outer darkness with Satan and his hosts.
Now this takes all the magic out of creation. All of a sudden, we can understand it, in our finite way. All of a sudden, our Heavenly Father becomes much more rational, comprehensive, and our appreciation begins to accelerate as we begin to realize what a remarkable, beautiful, powerful personality He is. II Nephi is where it says we would end up with Satan and his angels were there no atonement. They cannot come back. Remember all the laws that held us back? Remember laws? You kept talking about laws.
And should God try it, as it says in Alma, they would cease to honor Him. And He would cease to be God.
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